INT: I wanted two things. I wanted to--one was, you were saying one of the ways we now, you know, judge films now is these tapes that come home and you were telling me that Hal Kanter had a line about that.
JR: We who vote in the Academy [Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences] are sent tapes, cassettes, at home to watch the movies. And Hal Kanter said, he sat down one day with his wife to watch a picture, he said, "The film was so bad we walked out of our house." [Laughter] [INT: That’s great.]

INT: Alright. Now this is a remembrance from-- You said about cherry orchard in reference to -- 'cause we were talking about Guild stuff at the time [JR: oh yes.] --and you were saying in reference to the, I guess the--
JR: It was the collapse of an organization called Directors Incorporated, which had been a sub-group of the Directors Guild [Directors Guild of America] way back when, when it had a purpose. Its purpose was somehow to be a money-making arm of the Guild. And it produced one series for television called SCREEN DIRECTORS PLAYHOUSE, which some of our Directors--I happened to be directing one of them, a comedy. But we had people like John Ford and George Stevens, and others came and did little half hour pictures that they had always wanted to do on their own; and it was quite an interesting series. And so Directors, Inc. got those proceeds and there were stockholders, because this had to be a corporation making money. And so people from time to time, on the board, were asked to serve, and I was one of those asked to serve. And it was--nothing really had to be done. It was just an occasional check to sign or a vote to be taken, but nothing serious. And one day, I think this was about 10 years ago, we were notified to come to a meeting to disband the organization 'cause it no longer had an IRS [Internal Revenue Service] function. There was no need. We're not making money and we're a non-profit organization. So let's have a meeting of the stockholders of Directors, Inc. So I came into this room and they're all old friends, but I was the kid. I was the youngest one in the group and I was way past 65. Well, not way past, but just probably 65. The others were in their 80s, some of them late 80s, and I looked around, these are some of the famous old Directors who were not working anymore, retired. And the business was accomplished in just a few minutes. We said, "Okay, we vote to disband and any money that is left goes to the Screen Directors--or Directors Guild Foundation.” And the work was done. And then we all looked at each other and it was a very sad moment; and my image was, it was the cherry orchard, because this old group would never meet again and we all knew it. And there was a moment of supreme sadness, really. And I thought and said aloud, "This is a terrible way to end this meeting." I said, "Let me tell you a current joke." I wanted to liven up the moment. [INT: Mmhmm.] So I told the joke, which I'm sure you know. The joke was about a ventriloquist who had come upon hard times and his agent said, "Look, I can't get you work anymore, but why don't you do what other ventriloquists are doing? They open up séance parlors. With your ability to throw your voice you can control the situation and, you know…” “Nah…” Too ethical. But he’s hungry. Finally, opens a séance parlor and his first client comes in. Mrs. Goldberg says, “I want to talk to my dead husband Harry.” And the ventriloquist says, “Okay, but let me explain my fee structure first. For $25 you could talk to Harry. For $50 Harry could talk to you. And for $100 you could talk to each other while I’m drinking a glass of water.” [Laughter] Okay, it’s a very good, in show business, ventriloquist joke, okay? And everybody laughed appreciatively and we had a good moment. It was saying goodbye. During the telling of the joke, I had noticed that the attorney for Directors, Inc., a man whom you would have selected, easily, out of any line up from extra casting or Screen Actors Guild: the quintessential white haired, white bread, Pasadena, attorney. He had left during the telling of the joke. It didn’t bother me because it wasn’t for him. However, I went to the restroom and I’m-- He was there and he was very apologetic. He said, “I’m sorry, I had to leave. I walked out in the middle of your joke.” I said, “That’s okay. The joke wasn’t really for you, it was for the inside.” He said, “ Oh, but I would like to hear it.” The guy said, “Would you tell it to me?” I’m in a men’s room. I said, “What? Here?” He said, “Please.” And I thought, “I don’t want to go through the whole thing,” I said, “How much have you heard about the preamble?” So we got passed that. He said he had just opened the séance parlor. I said, “Good.” I said, “So, $25 for this, $50 for that, and $100 while I’m drinking a glass of water.” And he looked at me and he said, “Ah, yes, yes. That’s that’s quite amusing, yes. I’m going to tell that story downtown, but I’m going to make the chap an attorney.” I thought, “Well, you could try it.” You know? And I thought, “What would that--if I were a fly on the wall of White Bread, White Bread, and White Bread Incorporated as he tells this joke and he says, “I don’t understand those Directors. They tell these pointless stories and they laugh.” [INT: Right.] But only--I figure out--thinking about it, I said he heard the word ‘Fee structure’ and that put him into attorney mode, but didn’t have a clue as to what we’re talking about. And you know I use that story--illustrative of comedy joke telling when I talk to classes about humor. I say how you--to quote a man, whom I met one day believe it or not, Mack Sennett. In his later years, I actually met him, and he said the most wonderful line for comics: “The audience will not laugh if it is mystified.” It’s a great line. And what that tells me, when I tell jokes or talk to classes, is the essential part of a joke is not so much the snapper it’s the preamble. You’ve got to really understand that before you get anywhere. Now, these people, our in group, understood ventriloquist business. This man obviously did not. There’s another one that I used even to greater effect I think. Are you sure I haven’t told this before? [INT: Tell it again even if you did.] In a prior session? [INT: Go.] There’s a very ancient joke, I know you’re familiar with this one. The scene is a candy store in Brooklyn. The proprietor is cleaning up. In the back room he finds an old lamp and he rubs it, and the genie arrives. And to--says, “I am the slave of the lamp Master. How could I help you? Or what could--I will serve you.” And taken aback the storekeeper says, “Well, I--I don’t know what to--“ he says, “You know what?” He said, “I’ve always wanted a vacation, two weeks in the Catskill Mountains.” And the genie says, “You have only to ask for it.” And he says, “Okay, I--“ He says, “Wait a minute. If I go to the Catskills who will watch the store for me?” And the genie says, “I, the genie, will open the store for you.” So he says, “Okay. I’d like a vacation in the Catskills.” And the genie says, “Poof.” And he’s gone. Two weeks. The next day this huge black cloud of smoke has put on an apron and he’s standing behind the counter as a regular comes in he says, “Hey, Sam. Wait a minute. Who are you?” “I am the slave of the lamp. What is it you wish old master, I’m here to serve you.” You know? He says, “Are you for real?” And then he explains about Sam is gone to the mountains, he says, “But I will server you. What is it you wish?” He said, “Okay, make me a malted [malted milk].” And the genie says, “Alright, you’re a malted.” Alright? That’s the old joke, okay? It’s an ancient, you know, New York, kind of thing. I was at a party at a friend of mine’s house, Gordon Wiles, who I think he may have been a Director at one time in live television. Well, whatever. Gordon Wiles was the scion of a very wealthy General Motors [General Motors Company] family back in Michigan. His father was a Vice President. And I was at Gordon’s house. It was a very lovely cocktail party and faintly--he was across the room--and I heard him start what sounded like this joke. So I kind of tuned in, I was interested to see how he would handle it. And to my surprise he went through a litany of descriptions that had to do with a guy in a candy store in Brooklyn opening up the store, putting out the newspapers, cleaning up the magazines, selling jelly beans to the children of the neighborhood. I mean, all irrelevant and lengthy. And finally getting to cleaning up and he cleaned up the front of the store and he cleaned up--finally made his way to the back. And I was really entranced because one of the tenants of telling good jokes is brevity, and being lean. You must take away all the extraneous material and get to the meat. Just say there’s a man in a storeroom cleaning up, bang. You’re now with the lamp. He finally got there. He finally got the lamp--the servant out. He finally, after an endless colloquy, which really astounded me-- And of course, the audience was going--his audience--was very restive and half paying attention by now. He finally got the man to the Catskills, and he finally brings the new customer in the next day, and after more preamble, and more talk, none of which was completely necessary, he was convinced that the slave of the lamp would serve him and he’s--the genie says, "What is it you wish? I will give it to you." And he says, "I'd like a chocolate soda." Well, you can't get there from there. He said, "Wait a minute. No, no. I'd like a milkshake." No, it was--and of course the audience, by this time, was like, "Are you kidding me?" And finally--I got to interrupt--I said, "Gordon, you cannot get there with the words, 'I would like.' You have to say, 'Make me.' Very clearly. And that will get the--" "Oh." He never understood. To this day, I think, you know? By the way, we had white bread sandwiches that day at the party. [Laughs]

INT: Now, you know, this is a good segue in a way because I remember once talking to Rob Reiner and Rob said that the one thing you cannot teach an Actor is comic timing. They either have it, or they don't.
JR: Yeah, that's correct. I think that's absolutely right. You can help it. You can certainly do it in editing. And it's funny you should bring that up because it puts me in mind of a situation. I had done many, many comedies and I finally had a contract dispute with CBS [Columbia Broadcasting System]. I said, "You must give me a drama to do." You know? So we made a deal. I would do four weeks of a comedy and then the fifth week would be--and I was looking for PLAYHOUSE 90 or CLIMAX! at the time. And I reminded them. I said, "You owe me." Because it was Eve Arden had a new series after I had done OUR MISS BROOKS. I did four of those episodes and I wanted the drama. They said, "Well CLIMAX! and PLAYHOUSE 90 are all booked." I said, "But you owe me. Do you own anything else?" "Well, we own GUNSMOKE, but you've never done a western." I said, "I've never seen a western being shot. So what?” You know? “It's a drama.” So reluctantly they gave me a drama. Okay. And I stayed, by the way, for a year doing GUNSMOKE and then came back. Many years later, I was doing GUNSMOKE THE HOUR with Jim Arness [James King Arness] and I remember shooting a close-up of Arness where somebody off-stage, the villain, has threatened him in some way. "I'm gonna kill you, Marshal." Or whatever. And the close-up is on Arness's face and just looks at him stonily and he looks, and he looks, and he looks, and finally he says, "What's the next line?" He was up. Not cut. But in the cutting room, that long look of an Actor trying to remember a line, you could fill in the menace that was in the moment. And it was very effective. But in comedy, if the timing had slid by a microsecond, it's over. You have to say, "Cut." You've gotta come in. It's too late. You've got to be right on the money and it has to be a snap and it has to be--it's the element of surprise that is so important. [INT: Mmhmm.] And to be surprised at a joke, you can't wait. You get everything ready, you prepare, prepare, prepare, and then pull the plug. And that's when you create the audience's cohesion to laugh.

INT: We may have talked about this before, but I’m actually--if it's gonna repeat, it's gonna repeat. [JR: Yeah.] Your comedy mentors-- [JR: Yeah.] Besides--'cause I remember some of your youth in some of the stuff that we talked about, and the fact that, you know, the world that you grew up in. But your comedy mentors. I mean, there are a couple comments you've given here like the Sennett [Mack Sennett] comment. Are there some that you would say, "Yes, these guy or this gal really did teach me something about comedy that I didn't realize? Or maybe help me articulate something I knew?”
JR: It was an osmosis 'cause I worked on THE JACK CARTER SHOW as a Stage Manager way back when; and Carter [Jack Carter] was an unconsciously--a very furious man. By the way, he's become a good friend lately, and he's mellowed quite a bit because he's almost as close to death as I am, you know? [INT: Right.] But he was a terror. But he didn't have timing and there was kind of an osmosis. When I worked with Jimmy Durante [James Francis “Jimmy” Durante], I would watch how they timed something. I guess, I didn't really think I thought about it. [INT: Right.] You know? It just kind of came through the pores. And Joan Davis, who was a brilliant comedienne, a very hostile woman, but brilliant in her own way. And Lucy [Lucille Ball]. I worked with her on one occasion. Danny Thomas and people like that. You knew from the way they told stories off-stage that you could learn something; and you leaned a great deal. You know, it's like, I think I may have said in the earlier version about Lucy doing the -- rehearsing the sketch with Red Skelton [Richard Bernard “Red” Skelton]. [INT: Tell it again, 'cause you were talking about Davis.] Well, they got into a tiff and as Actors sometimes, particularly very wonderful Actors, will say, "Wait a minute. I want to do it this way." "No you shouldn't." "Yes I should." And finally, it escalated to where Skelton said to Lucille Ball, "Who do you think you are?" And she said, "You're full of shit. That's who I am." [Laughter] Now, you can't teach that response, you know? [INT: You hadn't told me that.] I hadn’t told you that? [INT: No, 'cause that would have stayed with me forever.] You can't teach that. I mean, that came right out of her gut and she knew exact--and it was the right thing to say. And of course it broke up the room and they went on to other things but--

INT: Now this is an interesting issue. Okay. [JR: Yeah.] Let's talk about Director's responsibility at this moment. You get two Actors who suddenly are now after each other. [INT: Yeah.] And you've been there, I'm sure. [JR: Oh, many times.] What's the responsibility of the Director? How do you handle it?
JR: First of all, I listen because--and I’ve always said to them, “With me, the best idea wins.” But I reserve the right to determine what's the best idea. So if two people are arguing like that, I'll listen. You know, it's like the rabbis who says, "You're right, Mr. Shapiro. And you’re right, the other one,” he says, “How can they both be right? You're right, too.” You know, it’s a--you try to keep that balance of who is right and wrong. But I don't care who's right or wrong. I mean, it’s after all, it's my decision, ultimately. I've often had somebody from the fly gallery say, "Why doesn't he say so and so?" And I say, "Gee, that's a hell of an idea." And I'll use it. On the other hand, if somebody will yell down and I will say, "Shut up. Do what you're supposed to do. Leave me alone." You know? "Oh, okay." But it's on that--it’s that quick--[INT: But I'm curious about something. The best idea wins is a great phrase. Do you also--have you actually also said, "And I'm the one who's gonna determine it?" Or do you not say that, but are that?] I don't say it. [INT: That’s smart.] No, no, you never say, "Look, you're doing this because I'm the Director." That's the kiss of death. No. You have to get there another way. There has to be logic involved. You say logically, argument A has some merit; Argument B has some merit; but there's a best merit somewhere in there, or none at all. One of my favorite things is rehearsals. I love rehearsals where I encouraging the Actors to really be free. And I don't know if I've talked about this before, but it's one of the reasons why I keep a firmly closed set for the first three days of shooting. Have I mentioned this? Three days are in violet. Nobody comes on my set because it's an in-group; and I've noticed that any time an outside influence comes in, I don't care how innocuous--it could be a messenger--the Actor starts to act. They begin to perform and I don't want performance the first three days. I want study. Investigation. Dialogue. Thought. And I will work with them over and over. “And please, give me your thought. How would you say this? Why did you say that?" I will say to an Actor. 'Cause I put aside the text in my first three days. I never look at it. I've got it pretty well in my head. And I'll say, "Why'd you say that?" And the Actor will say, "That's the written line." I said, "Yeah, but isn't there a better response than that?" And they will think about it and say, "Yeah, I could say..." and I would encourage it. And sometimes the tangent we would go off on would be pure gold. Sometimes it would fail. But the mere exercise of the option was what was exciting. And that's why I loved working for Sheldon Leonard and Carl Reiner and Norman Lear. They gave me three days. They never came on the set. They never interrupted unless I had real serious problems. Maybe once or twice I would have to telephone up and say, "You know, I really can't get out of this one." There's a line problem, or something. But always, we would fight our way out of it by writing on the set and that was encouraged of. [INT: Yup.] Sometimes, we would hit a dead end and I’d say, "Okay." I would show them my work on Friday night, but by that time, the Actors had their scripts put away, they had it memorized. Most of the business was done, and you could show them a play. Now it may not be perfect-- there may be a line needed here or there--but it was the encouragement of the moment that really made it work.

INT: Now, this is a major shift in terms of the way.
JR: The way it's done today? [INT: Yeah.] Horrifying. I don't do that much anymore. I still work occasionally but-- And now with the advent of Writer-Producers who are mostly very young--and I don't denigrate the young. We were all young once ourselves, and some of them are very good, but they don't trust their own instincts sometimes, and they say, "They want a run-through on the first day." They tell comedy Directors. And I've said to them, "Boy, how can you have a run-through? You will see Actors stumbling around with their books." "Well we want to hear it." "Well,” I said, “that's radio, you know? You hear it at the table, we just read it this morning. Why do it again? You will not see real active staging. You certainly won't see any physical business.” They can't do it; but it's because the networks insist on it and the studios now insist on it. So these poor young Writers now have studios and networks breathing down their collective necks saying, "We want run-throughs." You know? So the Writers go home--they don't go home. They go to work that night and re-write an entire script sometimes. [INT: And then they're also on the set while you're rehearsing.] They’re what? [INT: Also on the set while the Director’s rehearsing.] Not on my sets. [INT: No, I understand. I'm saying the difference in--and as we look at the evolution--] Oh, young Directors now are ruined by Writers being on the set and because--and I say they have a perfect right to be on the set but they should direct! You know? Don't hire a Director if you're going to stand over his or her shoulder. You know, come in if you want to direct, direct. It's okay! We have an open society. This Guild [Directors Guild of America] has never closed up to anybody; and I encourage good Writers to become good Directors. There's nothing wrong with that. What I do object to is that it's like talking to the bus driver while the bus is in motion. You mustn't do that. It's a serious, serious flaw. And I think a lot of that is happening. But as I say, in my day--god I hate that phrase. [INT: But here's an interesting thing before your day though. I wanna--I mean, there are some really funny PC shows that are on now that are being made in I guess, I would assume, a different style. I would assume that, for example, we were talking about the Larry David show [CURB YOUR ENTHUSIASM]. I'm sure that they're all around, he's around, he's the Writer.] No, that's different 'cause that's improv. I mean, I don't think--that show, I don't believe is scripted at all. I think it’s--[INT: They must have something because--] They take a spine of an idea and they work it almost like Chaplin [Charlie Chaplin] did in the silents. You know, of course, Chaplin was notorious for reshooting, reshooting. And what they do now is they-- David is a particular animal. I mean that's a wonderful show, by the way. [INT: Yeah.] I love it. My wife [Patricia Rich] is uncomfortable because she doesn't like all that ad-libbing and I think it's great. He's crazy and does a crazy show. It's delicious. I mean, of course, that was the voice of SEINFELD as well, you know? No mystery there why that's funny stuff. It's very funny. [INT: Yup.] Very bitter and funny. [INT: Absolutely. I'm curious whether their technique is one whether the Directors on things like SEINFELD, 'cause I don't know this personally.] I don't either. [INT: Yeah, but they have a time that theirs-- ]

INT: Let's talk about something that's very specific. Let's use--
JR: I want--I didn't quite finish the thought and I don’t know--I was heading somewhere. [INT: Well we were talking--we were talking about the nature of the time that you need as a Director, and want [JR: Yeah.] as a private time working with the Actors where it doesn’t have--] Oh, I was gonna give you an anecdote. [Okay.] If I may. Is that okay? [INT: Please.] I was doing a show [WALTER AND EMILY] with, I think it was with Cloris Leachman and Brian Keith, I think; and my assistant, a wonderful Associate Director named Doug Smart, who knew every tic that I had. In fact, he was responsible--if he ever saw me rise in ire, if my anger began to show, he would always slow me down by saying, "John, it's time to hose out your enclosure." It was a wonderful phrase, you know? He got the animal in me down. And I’d say, “Alright.” But one day I was-- [Laughter] Isn't that great? "It's time to house out your enclosure." One day, I was rehearsing a sequence at one end of the studio stage and way at the other end of the set--of the stage--I saw a knot of people, civilians, arrive. And I kind of glanced over and Doug gave me the nod. He knew they were not welcome. This was the first three days. And I said-- and immediately I always give the Actors five-minute breaks. I said, "Take five." And he came back and I noticed they were still there. I said, "Doug," he said, "It's Buffy Thomopoulos and her friends." Isn't that a marvelous name? Buffy Thomopoulos. [INT: Two worlds.] Well, I didn't know Buffy, but I knew the name Thomopoulos 'cause Tony Thomopoulos [Anthony D. Thomopoulos] was president of the network [ABC; American Broadcast Company] that I was serving at that moment. So I said, "Well, tell Ms. Thomopoulos she is more than welcome to bring her group back on a Monday or a Tuesday when we're doing camera work. By that time, the Actors have done their routine, but we don't like to have folk while they're trying to invent.” I said, "It's not good for them to have people looking in. Please explain. Be polite, of course." So he went and I could see an animated conversation and he came back--they left--and he came back and he said, "Oh boy, is she pissed." I said, "Well…” “I'm very sorry," I said and I went back to work. Twenty minutes later, the Page on the set said, "Mr. Rich, there's a telephone call from New York. It's Tony Thomopoulos calling." Now, of course everybody has heard this now. So I'm on, and they're gonna hear my end of the conversation. Now I had no idea what I was going to say, but as I picked up the phone I suddenly had an inspiration. I said, "Tony, I'm so glad you called because I was going to call you." I said, "I don't remember if I introduced you to my sons, Robert and Anthony." I said, "Anthony is now 12 and Robert is 10, but both of them are interested in how an Executive works and we're gonna be in New York in a week or two and I wonder if it would be alright with you if the two boys came in and stood in a corner. Quietly, mind you. They will not interrupt you, but just try to watch you work in your office. Would that be okay with you, Tony? They're very well behaved boys, but they're so interested. I know that they would love to watch how you negotiate contracts and do your work as an executive. Would that be okay?" There was a silence. Then I said, "By the way, why did you call?" He said, "Just checking up to see how things are." [INT: That is brilliant.] Well, it wasn't brilliant. It was--I did get applause. [INT: Absolutely--I'm sorry. That's why you are who you are, John. I would've “humph’d” and “phumph’d”--] No, it's exactly appropriate to the issue. I mean, that's the point. I mean, I will tell the truth, I mean, no matter what. I mean, that may have been impolitic. Obviously. It was not the politic thing to do. But the fact is, when we're at work, we're at work. We're not on exhibit. The Director and his cast should be allowed to work, to do the investigation and the deep thought process that goes into the acting process with the help of a Director who's listening, hopefully with a good ear. Let them work. Don't let them perform when it's too soon. And there was another--oh, I know what it was. I was leading up to another thought, and that was, the rehearsal laugh. Because I'm free with allowing people to try, once in awhile they would stumble on something that was so hysterical, we would all fall down laughing. It was just like, "Oh God, that was a funny, funny moment." And the Actors sometimes would say, "I can't wait to say this on the air." And I would say, "You're not gonna say that." They said, "What do you mean?" I said, "You can't say that." "Why?" I said, "It violates your character. You must toe that line. Sure it was hysterically funny, but it's what I call a rehearsal laugh. I enjoyed the moment as much as you did. An audience will hate you for it. You can't do it." And I think that's what's wrong with a lot of shows today. They have--the rehearsal laugh has been incorporated into the show and you wonder, "Why would that Actor say that?" They shouldn't. In fact, I will say when I left ALL IN THE FAMILY after four years, I tuned into my sorrow on a couple of episodes when they did cross that line; and one of my forbearers used to say, "The inmates have taken over the asylum." And there was no Directorial hand to say, "You can't do this." And they slid into ARCHIE BUNKER'S PLACE, which was not, in my opinion, a great show.

INT: Let's talk about ALL IN THE FAMILY as an example of--
JR: Can you be heard, by the way? [INT: Yeah, but it’s not important--yeah, there’s a mic there that’s at me.] Oh, I'm so glad. [INT: As an answer--as--] 'Cause I can't hear you. [INT: Well I'll speak--] No, no. I'm kidding. INT: Let’s use ALL IN THE FAMILY, let's walk through that show in terms of some of the issues of you as Director. When you came on board with this show, was there any cast at all yet? JR: Oh, yes. Carroll O'Connor and Jean Stapleton were cast. Now, Norman Lear and Bud Yorkin, his partner, had directed two pilots prior to the one that I did. Both had been for ABC [American Broadcast Company] and both of them had different subsidiary casts. Carroll and Jean were there from the beginning. In the first episode, they had the meathead role and Sally's [Sally Struthers] role--two other Actors. And Lionel [Lionel Jefferson], the next door neigh--three different people. The second pass, three different people. Out of those six, in my opinion-- because I looked at them--I said, "The casting is wrong." And we had agreement. And I had remembered Rob [Rob Reiner] as being the solemn observer in he grandstand. He was allowed to come into my show 'cause he was Carl Reiner's son and I did not mind that particular--'cause he was introduced. In fact, I think he was a teenager, but he gave Mary Tyler Moore an affectionate pat somewhere where he shouldn't have, you know? But, but he was allowed to some of the rehearsals, you know? But he was always a kind of a glowering figure which, yeah, he looked strange and unhappy. And I only saw him once or twice doing that ‘cause as they say, I told Carl, I said, "I really think it’s not a great idea. It's okay once in awhile." Usually after we'd been through--mostly for camera day, but he did come in and watch a lot. He became a brilliant Director, you know? What a wonderful Director he's become. Anyway, I remembered him and when Carl called me one day and he said, "Would you come and look at an off-Melrose production of something with me?" I said, "Yeah, why?" He said, "Well Rob's in it." "Your son Rob is gonna be an Actor?" He said, "Yeah, he's trying." I said, "Well, okay." So I went and when it was over, Carl said, "What'd you think?" I said, "I thought it was terrible." And Carl said, "Yeah, you're right." By the way, that's another thing; you've gotta be truthful. If your word is anything, especially on a set, and especially with your peers, you can't lie your way out of it. You don't even want to be polite. In fact, you know, you don't want to be polite. [INT: I want to hear about that. Why don't you talk about it?] Well, Willy Wyler [William Wyler], at a board meeting one day--we we're talking about directing--and he said, "You must avoid all temptation to be a good fellow." It's a great line for a Director. It's not a popularity contest. You've got the work to be done. You have to be fixed on the goal. And if an Actor is doing something wrong--well, I shouldn't have said you don't want to be polite. You can do it nicer, but with Carl, because we had our own conversational level, “he was terrible” because that was the truth. We would talk about acting that way. He said, "You're right." Now, about a year later, he did it again. He said, "Would you come and see Rob?" I saw Rob, he said, "What do you think?" I said, "Marginally better. He's still not an Actor." He said, "You're right." But then I was doing GOMER PYLE [U.S.M.C.] some--a couple of years after that--and I needed a sullen-looking hippie. Rob came to mind and I cast him with Aaron Reuben's approval. He was wonderful. So when it came time to casting ALL IN THE FAMILY, Norman [Norman Lear] had known him, I knew him, we said, "Hey. I think that's meathead." And was it. Of course, Sally came in and she was bubble-headed and bright, you know, and the least--what's the word? The least conditioned? The least experienced, pardon me. [INT: Got it.] It's an Alzheimer's world, you know? [INT: Yeah, I got you. Experience.] Words seem to disappear. [INT: They do.] The least experienced of the acting troupe, but perfect for the role. And she grew with the part, if you noticed--if you did notice anyway--through the years. We became her university, you know? She's now--I think she's very capable. More capable now than she ever was. I saw her in Vegas doing a show and she was terrific. [INT: Yeah?] Yeah. [INT: Now --] Now, let me finish. There was another, if I may, there was a thought process that was going on. Oh, it had to do with Lionel, the next-door neighbor. [INT: Right.] Did I go through that-- [INT: Yes. Lionel--] exercise with you? [INT Yes, you did tell us about Lionel ‘cause I remember that.] Okay, 'cause I don't want to repeat myself. [INT: I remember that.] Because Norman wanted Cleavon Little. [INT: Right.] And Cleavon was a friend but I said, "No, he's too rough. Let's get this kid." And I went with someone who had never done anything.

INT: Do you remember, in those days, the casting process for you? Did it remain the same? I mean, would most of the times an Actor come, like Sally [Sally Struthers] for example, and read for you? [JR: Yes.] Would you do improvisation work? What would you do to convince yourself? Would you need to see them one, two, three, four times?
JR: I would talk first. Just, in general, just get a line on who they were. [INT: Mmhmm.] I loved to find out where'd you go to school? They didn't go to school. Oh. Where'd you go to school? "I went to Michigan." Hey. Great. Whatever. It just--see how they handle themselves in conversation. One test also was--early on was the handshake. If an Actor shook hands and their palms were sweaty, I was not too happy with that because I don't need all those nerves now 'cause it gets worse later. [Chuckles] And yet, I mean, that wasn't the whole criteria, you know? Obviously. But physical appearance always meant something. Did I tell you about my partner Henry Winkler when we were doing MR. SUNSHINE? [INT: No, go on.] Talk about casting. Because we were doing two shows at the time--I was directing and producing MR. SUNSHINE and MACGYVER at the same time. We were just opening up and I had cast--oh, you talk about casting bias. I wanted a professor of English who was blind to play Mr. Sunshine. That was a series that was way ahead of its time, I fear. We only did thirteen and the network got nervous, even though we were getting very good and we had the wonderful writing staffof David Lloyd. So in came to read for this professor part, a man not unlike yourself, only he had a very full black beard, and he was bald. Pardon the expression. Hairlessly--hair-challenged. Or hairfully-challenged. [INT: Hairfully challenged.] Hairfully challenged. And I thought to myself, "This is not the image." But I have to be polite. Read. It was Jeffrey Tambor. He read the role and I just jumped out of my seat. I said, “God--” He had every nuance at the first reading. I said, "This is the man! There's no question." I cast him immediately. And he was wonderful--just the perfect choice. But I had asked Henry, in terms of later on what I was rehearsing, I said, "Look, for the following week's episodes, would you do me a favor? Read four or five, or as many people that the casting people bring to you, and select one or two of your best choices and bring them to me at lunch because I can't go to the session--” Etcetera, etcetera. Workable idea. And one morning Henry came to me, he said, "I found the guy to play the antagonist role." Whatever it was. The deuteragonist. Nice word. [INT: I like that one. Deuteragonist?] Deuteragonist. Yeah, the second banana. [INT: Love it.] Yeah. [INT: Great.] It comes from Deuteronomy. [INT: I love it-- Deuteragonist?] Deu-tor-agonist. [Deuteragonist.] There's the protagonist and-- [INT: Right] and the deuteragonist is the second lead. You've never heard that phrase? [INT: No, never.] You must be--you're a classical scholar! [INT: I'm sorry. That part of the classics went down for me.] Protagonist is the first. [Right.] Deuterogamist the second. [INT: Great.] And then the antagonist is the opposition. [INT: The opposite, right. Got it.] Yeah. Anyway, Henry had come in and said, "I've got the guy." I said, "Oh, that's wonderful." “Boy did he read perfectly.” “Wonderful. That’s great. Bring him at lunch." So in my dressing room at lunch, Henry shows up and he brings in Jeffrey Tambor's double. A man with a black beard and a baldhead and if we were doing a show about his long-lost brother, it's perfect. But the minute I saw him, I said, "The man can't do the part." But I’m being polite. I let him read. He read, you know? And he left and Henry said, "Eh? Was that great?" I said, "He read very well, but Henry, there are certain criteria that you have to use in casting.” I said, “One of them is that he must not be a double for your principal performer." “What?” "Did you see what he looked like?" “Oh.” I said, "He was trade and mark on the Smith Brothers cough drops." You know the two guys with the--[mimes a beard]. That's an old reference, isn't it? [INT: Yeah, it sure is.] Do they still make Smith Brothers cough drops? [INT: I don't think so but they do still make--] There were two guys with--[INT: Yes] beards [The Vicks [cough drops].] and one was--and it said trademark, but we used to call one guy Trade, the other guy Mark. [INT: And the other guy Mark? That one I didn't know. That one I like. Yup.] Anyway, so in casting, I always like to tell Actors, "You know, we are on your side. We are not the antagonist. We want you to be good." I want every Actor to know that coming in--if he or she comes into the room and they hit the mark, I'm delighted. My work is finished on that role. I can go do something else.

INT: But haven't you also had the experience every now and then where an Actor has hit the mark in the casting session and now you're on stage--
JR: Yeah, and they get weak. Sometimes. [INT: Really?] Yes, it has happened. I've been fooled--not too often, I must say. [INT: Mmhmm.] But with work you can get them. It's like, Jamie Farr. Did I ever tell you that story? [INT: Mm-mm.] Well, Jamie Farr was a very young Actor when I was doing THE DICK VAN DYKE SHOW, and he came and he had one line, which-- In fact, I don't think I even read it, I just said, "Let me look at it," and I saw the face. They showed me the photograph because it was a one-line part. He was the coffee boy to bring coffee and sandwiches to Rose Marie, Dick Van Dyke, and Morey Amsterdam. And the line went like this--It was actually two lines: "Who had the coffee?" And Morey said, "Mine’s the one with eight sugars." And the delivery boy, Jamie, was supposed to say, "Eight sugars? Eat candy. Why ruin good coffee?" It's a simple line. [INT: Right.] Nobody could screw this up. [Light chuckling.] Well, in every rehearsal take, he got, "Eat candy! Eat Candy! Why—ruin—good coffee?! Whyruingoodcoffee!" And I kept looking at him, and Rose Marie--we used to do a parody in the show, Mary Tyler Moore used to say, "What are you gonna do Rob?" whenever he had a problem. Rose Marie would always sidle by me and say, "What are you gonna do, John?" And I would say, "Shut up." But she knew I was in deep trouble because this kid was not getting it. And I said, "Don't worry.” I said, “I think he may be tone deaf. I don't want to give him a line reading just yet, but--" I hate doing that. “But it's not that tough. He'll get it, don't worry." And on the night we did the show and he came and he said, "Why ruin good coffee?!!" He barked out something wrong, you know, and okay. And I said, "Now we're gonna do a pick-up, and now Jamie, you'll repeat after me. 'Eat candy. Why ruin good coffee?' It's a simple statement." And he did it and it was okay. We slugged it into the picture. It was okay. About 1962, it was about 30 years or 40 years later. Literally that long. Now Jamie Farr is now a big star, having been Clinger on M*A*S*H, and I was changing planes at O'Hare airport in Chicago, and I was walking down that long concourse, and coming the other way, clearly, is the now-successful Jamie Farr. Now without breaking stride, I pointed at him and he said, "Why ruin good coffee?!" And I said, "Keep at it. It's getting better. We'll get it in a pick-up." as he walked by. [INT: Great.] So line readings are sometimes necessary, but nowadays I suspect that everything is a line reading because we have the curse--I used to think it was of great value. Of course, it obviously is of value in certain circumstances. We now have the curse of modular editing.